Stephanie: 🎶 Hello, and welcome to Season 2, Episode 9 of Expecto Podtronum, a podcast dedicated to all things Patronuses.🎶

 I’m your host Stephanie. 

Amy: I’m Amy.

Liz: I’m Liz.

Sidney: And I’m Sydney, and today we will be talking about the Occamy.

Stephanie: So pretty.

Liz: It’s a magical creature episode.

Amy: We love magical creature episodes.

Liz: Yea we do.

Stephanie: Again, my head just went, pew! pew, pew, pew! Pew!

[Laughter]

Sidney: They’re a special treat.

Liz: That’s valid.

Amy: Okay, the Occamy, one of our very few magical creatures who can be Patronuses, that makes them very rare. [M-hmm] If you got an Occamy Patronus on that quiz, lucky you.

Stephanie: I’m jealous.

Liz: I’m jealous.

[Laughter]

Amy: I wish I could trade in my gray squirrel for an Occamy. [Laughter]

Stephanie: Still not sure how I’m feeling about my weasel.

Sidney: Field mouse and I are not on speaking terms.

[Laughter]

Liz: I mean, I’m still vibing with a wildcat, like…

Amy: That’s a cool one. To quote the Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them book, “the Occamy is found in the Far East and India. A plume, two legged, winged creature with a serpentine body. The Occamy may reach a length of 15 feet. It feeds mainly on rats and birds, though has been known to carry off monkeys. 

The Occamy is aggressive to all who approach it. Particularly in defense of its eggs, whose shells are made of the purest, softest silver.” The book gives the Occamy a rating of 4x on a scale for danger, that is pretty dangerous. 

In the illustrated-

Sidney: The scale goes up to five, doesn’t it? 

Amy: Yes.

Liz: And who all else is out of five? That’s Acromantula’s and Basilisks.

Amy: Thestrals. 

Stephanie: This is one step below a Basilisk in its danger rating.

Liz: I mean, Amy did say that it’s really aggressive to anyone who approaches it, I feel that makes sense then.

Stephanie: If it has eggs, but what if it doesn’t have eggs?

Liz: But it says particularly in defense of its eggs. I would take that as it’s pretty aggressive most of the time, but even more so when it’s nesting.

Amy: You probably shouldn’t approach it because it might have eggs.

Liz: I mean, to be fair [I wanna boop it], if there’s a huge danger noodle with wings.

Amy: [Laughter] Danger noodle. 

Liz: And a beak in front me, I am not approaching it.

Stephanie: I call those nope ropes, but yes. 

Amy: It is not boopable.

[Laughter]

Liz: Nope ropes.

[Laughter] 

Stephanie: That is a nope rope, I’m gonna stay very far away.

Amy: Yes.

Sidney: Yeah, 5X includes creatures like the Acromantula and the Basilisk like we talked about but also Chimaeras, dragons, Lethifolds, Manticores, werewolves, that kind of thing [M-hmm]. 4 includes other very dangerous but not as dangerous creatures like griffins, Kappas, centaurs, phoenixes, Thestrals, stuff like that. Trolls. Trolls also.

Stephanie: I feel those should be up at 5.

Sidney: You don’t want those in your dungeon.

[Laughter]

Liz: But I bet their intelligence plays a role in that.

Amy: Probably.

Sidney: I am not as scared of a troll as I am of a dragon, [Yeah] so I’m gonna agree with that classification.

[Laughter]

Liz: Even though we’re talking about the Manticore that’s in what is the recent Fantastic Beasts Secrets of Dumbledore, that guy was pretty scary. [M-hmm] Deserves that 5x rating, for sure.

Amy: The little baby ones not so much, but the big guys.

Sidney: Quick side note, imagine having a troll Patronus. Don’t discuss, we don’t have time. Carry on.

[Laughter]

Amy: Leave that there.

Liz: That’s for a Patreon episode somewhere down the line. 

Stephanie: That is a Patreon episode. [Laughter] Where is Lucy? She writes these down.

Liz: Add it to the list.

Amy: Back to the Occamy. In the illustrated book, it looks a lot more bird-like with wings [Yeah]. In the movie, it looks a lot more like a serpent with little itty bitty wings that obviously wouldn’t make it be able to fly. But both are depicted as blue and feathered.

Liz: I wonder what the decision was other than reading a serpentine body and assuming, okay, snake. 

Amy: [Laughter] Yeah, yeah. 

Liz: I get it. But I feel that also means you have a cylindrical body, like ferrets are kind of long and cylindrical.

Stephanie: I feel it gives it more visual diversity than to some of the other creatures [Yeah] that were shown [M-hmm] with two legs and wings and stuff like that. I feel like that could be an indicator.

Liz: Mm-hmm.

Sidney: There are a lot of winged or bird-based magical creatures [There are!] in the world of Fantastic Beasts. That could be a reason.

Liz: The Fwooper, the Thunderbird and we got the Augury in there at one point.

Sidney: Diricawl. Phoenix.

Stephanie: Diricawl.

Sidney: Even Thestrals.

Amy: I feel like with the Occamy and its ability to get bigger or smaller depending on the spaces taking up, I think that looks cooler if you’ve got this serpent body going on [Yeah] That’s coiling into things rather than just a bird. 

Liz: That’s true.

Amy: I’m sure that played a role.

Liz: Definitely would be. Yeah, it would definitely make it look more scary and frightening.

Amy: Yeah, yeah. Which we kind of skipped ahead a little bit there. But that ability to become bigger or smaller and fill the space available is called choranaptyxis. 

And that’s actually a made up word. [I hate it]  Just for the Occamy [I hate it] because the Occamy is that special. 

Sidney: Why do you hate it?

Liz: I don’t like it. Why is the it’s the ‘PTYX’ is what gets it for me? 

Stephanie: It’s made up. Just throw all the weird letters in it.

Liz: I don’t like it.

Sidney: There should definitely be a word for this.

Amy: Apparently the word was invented by JKR because she had based the Occamy off of the myth that fish grow to the space available to them [Hmm]  and then discovered when that wasn’t true that there wasn’t a word so needed a word and thus the word that Liz loves so much. [Laughter]

Liz: Look, It’s not as cool as chromatophore. Okay, that’s cooler.

Amy: That’s a pretty cool word, too.

Liz: Arguably.

Amy: But choranaptyxis is fun to say.

Liz: Is it? 

[Laughter]

Liz: I’m kind of surprised there wasn’t a word for something like this already, even to use to describe myths, you know?

Amy: Yeah.

Stephanie: I wonder, like, how did she come up with that as the word, you know?

Liz: What is the etymology, Amy, our etymology queen?

Amy: Yeah, I should have. I know.

Stephanie: It’s alright, I think Sid’s on it.

Amy: The name of the Occamy is actually kind of interesting because occamy is a metallic composition imitating silver. So fake or counterfeit silver and the fictional Occamy eggs have shells of silver. 

That makes sense. I know we talked about this a lot on Revelio too. There’s a debate of Occamy could be in relation to Occam’s Razor as well. [Ohhh] There is some interesting stuff there.

Liz: Oh, I like that.

Sidney: And for the audience, let us state Occam’s Razor.

Liz: That the simplest explanation is the most likely. Right? Am I getting that pretty decent?

Amy: Yes. [Laughter] The idea being the Occamy is a weird creature and that it can fill whatever space is available. The simplest solution, it just can. That’s the space that’s available. There’s no scientific explanation.

Sidney: Here’s the wordy description. The wordy version of it is, when faced with competing explanations, the simplest one should be preferred, summarized as entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity. [Hmm]

So the smallest amount of space that can be taken up as in space within logic, [M-hmm] the smallest amount of leaps in logic that you can take is the path that you should take. 

And for our earlier discussion, jumping back, the etymology of choranaptyxis, did I say that right? 

Amy: Yes. 

Sidney: Help me.

[Laughter]

Amy: Choranaptyxis.

Sidney: Choranaptyxis? The etymology of choranaptyxis is, choro is the Greek prefix meaning space, and anaptyxis is the Greek word meaning growth or unfolding. Growing into or unfolding into space. choranaptyxis.

Liz: So she did actually look up the thing then [Yeah] to make sure it made sense. Nice.

Sidney: She did actual research. It is unusual though that this is Greek rather than Latin, [Yeah!] because she usually preferred Latin.

Liz: Yeah. That’s true.

Amy: That is interesting.

Liz: Interesting.

Sidney: I wonder what that would be in Latin. It might have sounded less cool.

Stephanie: Yeah. 

Liz: That’s true.

Amy: Yeah.

Stephanie: She did the work, which we at least we know that. She did not do the work for some of these animals on this list.

[Laughter]

Liz: No, or other things like the number of bones Harry regrows in Chamber of Secrets

[Laughter]

Sidney: The number of people in the Wizarding World, how does it make sense? How do they have an entire Quidditch League? Okay, I’m getting us off track. 

Liz: We don’t know.

Sidney: Don’t start me.

Liz: Essentially, she can be bad with numbers, but making words works.

Amy: Yeah. [Laughter]

Sidney: Yes. So Amy, tell us more facts about Occamys.

Amy: Yes. That’s kind of it for the facts that I have. But when I was trying to think of what an Occamy Patronus could mean for someone who cast it, kind of looking back at what we know about the Occamy. 

I came up with this person who is probably pretty territorial and protective. Adaptable, so able to make do with whatever situation presents itself. And could also represent rarity since eggs are precious metal and it is also somewhat rare itself as a Patronus.

Liz: I like that.

Stephanie: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

Sidney: Yeah, I definitely think that adaptability and flexibility would be the key elements of this description here. Being able to change to the situation that you’re in.

Amy: Mm-hmm, for sure.

Stephanie: It’s giving me chameleon vibes as well.

Liz: I’m still caught up on the fact that occamy is a metallic composition imitating silver and then their eggs have silver shells. And now I want to know if the eggs are true silver or if they’re like that fake imitation silver.

Sidney: Could a werewolf hold an Occamy egg?

Liz: Is that a thing in the wizarding world? About the silver? I don’t remember if it is.

Stephanie: Sid’s panicking.

[Laughter]

Sidney: Cut that.

Liz: I don’t remember if it is.

Amy: I don’t know.

[Laughter]

Liz: Someone ask Lupin real quick. Wait.

Stephanie: Sids going back into the research.

Amy: So you mean all we had to do to figure out whether or not Hermione was a werewolf after the controversy of the Prisoner of Azkaban movie when she howls like a werewolf and it answers to her, therefore answering to its own? We could have had her pick up Occamy eggs?

Liz: If we sourced some, Yeah.

Amy: Here. [Laughter]

Sidney: Okay.

Stephanie: Put her in a silver necklace. 

Liz: Is that why the time turner’s gold?

[Laughter]

Amy: It’s all making sense now!

Liz: It’s making sense, the world building’s there.

Amy: We’re gonna bring back the decades-old conspiracy.

Liz: Did you find it Sid?

Sidney: Okay, I have the answer. According to the Harry Potter Wiki, silver bullets do not kill werewolves, but a mixture of powdered silver and Dittany applied to a fresh bite will seal the wound. It does have some effects. That’s basically it. 

Silver doesn’t hurt werewolves in Harry Potter world. You use it to seal up werewolf bites. 

Liz: Interesting. So that’s almost like the opposite kind of thing. 

Amy: Yeah.

Sidney: Yeah, interesting.

Liz: Could I use ground Occamy egg shells to make that happen and would that count as powdered silver or then we back to the conundrum of are their shells actually real silver or are they imitation silver?

Amy: I’m pretty sure they’re real.

Liz: Okay. 

Sidney: Deep thoughts.

Amy: Everything says silver so. 

Liz: Alright. 

Amy: Plus, I mean…

Sidney: That makes me want to do some chemistry.

Amy: Jacob does use Occamy eggs as collateral with the bank so it must be real.

Liz: He does.

Stephanie: He does! I forgot about that.

Sidney: How does an Occamy eat or ingest enough silver to make a silver egg, but I guess that doesn’t really matter. 

Amy: Occam’s Razor.

Sidney: Magic.

Liz: I think it’s just magic, yeah. It does the thing. 

Sidney: I can live with that.

Liz: Instead of a calcium shell, it’s a silver one.

Sidney: Yeah, it’s just magic. There we go.

Liz: Perfect! [Laughter] Well, I guess that probably ties us into our first segment, the Patronus Game, because I feel like we don’t play this enough.

Stephanie: I agree.

[🎶 Should this animal really be a guardian? Find out on The Patronus Game🎶]

Liz: So, when I consider the things Amy discussed about whether or not they would make an Occamy a good Patronus, the territorial nature I think certainly makes sense for a Patronus, right? Yeah. [Yeah]

The changing size thing, does it make it a good Patronus? I think if it makes itself big, sure [M-hmm], but if you’re in a tiny space and-therefore your Occamy Patronus ends up really small, would that scare off a Dementor?

Amy: However…

Sidney: If you’re in a tiny space, how can you fit a Dementor or a Leathifold in there with you?

Liz: I don’t know, Dementors have their ways.

Sidney: I guess you- the scenario is that you accidentally get crammed into a tiny room with a Dementor and there’s not enough room for your Patronus [Genie in a bottle situation] and so you cast the spell and it comes out like a little worm on a string.

Stephanie: Going fishing for dementors!

Amy: It would fill all the available space therefore like pushing out the Dementor

Liz: That’s true, that could work.

Stephanie: It could fill all of this space. It has to choose to fill all the space. It doesn’t fill it naturally, right?

Amy: Yeah.

Sidney: Do Patronuses have free will? [Laughter]

Liz: And that goes back to all the discussions we’ve had about Patronuses. Would it still maintain the ability to change its size in Patronus form? [I think so] That’s part of what would make it menacing.

Sidney: I mean, I think that’s one of the key characteristics of an Occamy, isn’t it? 

Liz: Yeah. It’s whether or not that actually bleeds over. Because someone could have an [Yeah] Occamy Patronus that has never seen an Occamy before and not realize, my Patronus should be changing sizes like an Occamy does. [Yeah]

It goes back to that same thing of the Thestral, right? If you have never seen a Thestral, but then have a Thestral Patronus… I feel like there’s a similar kind of logic there in terms of trying to figure that out.

Stephanie: Thestrals are horse-shaped. I’m still on it. 

Liz: We don’t need to bring up horse-shaped today.

Stephanie: An Occamy is not, but a Thestral is.

Liz: Thank goodness that an Occamy isn’t. 

Stephanie: That would be more terrifying.

Liz: Can you think about how we’re shaped with a serpentine body and wings? That sounds really scary. But also kind of hippogriff-like?

Sidney: Okay, I’m thinking of like a centaur but really really really long.

Liz: Oh. I don’t want to picture that. 

Stephanie: Like a centaur giraffe combo.

[Laughter]

Liz: Oh no.

Sidney: Yeah, I don’t like that.

Liz: I don’t like any of that. We’re gonna skip that. We’re gonna purge that from my brain.

[Laughter]

Stephanie: Back to the Patronus game, I feel like there’s a lot of other magical creatures that could appear more threatening in a normal size as opposed to one that can potentially shift size.

Liz: But I mean…

Amy: But it is aggressive.

Liz: It’s aggressive and I think it could depend on what its true appearance is, right? Because what we’ve seen depicted within the films has been that serpentine kind of thing, which I think could be very menacing. Just because snakes are spooky.

Sidney: It has a very sharp looking bird beak for a face. [It does, yes.] I think that could really hurt you.

Liz: I think it could And then when I picture the drawing from Fantastic Beasts, the illustrated version in my head, that also is pretty terrifying [M-hmm] because it doesn’t have a real body. Almost it’s kind of all neck and scary head and wings, which I think is also pretty menacing.

Amy: And I mean, bottom line, a Patronus doesn’t necessarily have to look scary. [I mean, it has to] It just needs to project lightness and be the opposite of a dementor.

Sidney: I think an Occamy is a dragon.

Stephanie: That’s a whole different conversation I want to have in a bonus episode, Amy. Of what, Sid?

Sidney: I think an Occamy is basically a dragon.

Liz: Is it like a Wyvern then, since it doesn’t have legs? 

Amy: It’s very similar, yeah.

Sidney: Yeah. It’s a huge serpent with wings and if you disregard the feathers, it’s a dragon.

Liz: Yeah.

Stephanie: Yeah, the Asian depiction of a dragon. Right?

Sidney: Yeah. Yeah. Like a yeah, like a Chinese dragon. 

Amy: I mean, they’re from the Far East.

Liz: So that, yeah. Okay.

Amy: That makes sense.

Stephanie: Okay.

Sidney: So yeah, it’s scary. It’s a scary creature. It’s a dragon. It’s a dragon with feathers. But it’s a dragon. 

Liz: It’s a dinosaur. 

Amy: Yeah.

Sidney: Yeah. I mean, it very much does look dinosaur-like, like, it’s got that pterodactyl face.

Liz: Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie: Okay, I can get on board.

Sidney: So yeah, I think it’s a scary-looking Patronus.

Liz: So we decided it’s a worthy Patronus.

Amy: I think so.

Sidney: I agree.

Liz: Okay, but then whose Patronus would it be anyway? [Laughter]

[🎶 Which character could fit this Patronus? Find out on Whose Patronus is it Anyway?🎶 ]

Liz: I think, now hear me out, my brain immediately jumped to Lavender Brown. 

Stephanie: Okay. 

Liz: When I think about the territorialness, because I know we like to make fun of Lavender Brown as a whole in the fandom of like, the WonWon necklace and all that stuff. She’s just marking her territory. She’s doing what a lot of 16 year old girls in quote unquote love do. But it’s territorial. 

And I say she’s adaptable because she essentially tries to push herself into every little nook and cranny of Ron’s life so he’ll pay attention to her and notice her. And I think that’s adaptable and I think she should get credit for that.

Sidney: Fair enough.

Stephanie: Okay.

Amy:  I see where you’re going there.

Stephanie: I can see why you think that.

[Laughter]

Liz: I feel like I had some therapy speak spoken back to me. [Laughter]

Amy: How does that make you feel, Liz?

Liz: That’s where my brain jumped to and I can totally picture her having a really cool Patronus like this. Not that the others aren’t cool, but you know your field mouse is not necessarily the coolest.

[Laughter]

Stephanie: Sid didn’t even pick on you right now! That was me! You should have come after my weasel. Not Sid’s mouse. 

Liz: No, I can come after Sydney’s mouse because she also goes after her mouse.

[Laughter]

Sidney: It deserves it. Yeah. So, I mean, I get where you’re coming from, but it does seem like, I don’t know, like, I don’t think that she is, she doesn’t scare me, you know? Like, I don’t think she really has that edge to her that I would think of when I think of an Occamy.

Liz: Were thinking then [Yeah] that anyone who has an Occamy Patronus has to have a bit more bite?

Amy: Yes. 

Sidney: Yeah. 

Liz: So Tonks? 

Amy: We got some more options.

Sidney: Does anyone have any options that might fit that?

Stephanie: I can go next. After reading all the stuff and listening to our discussion and all of our conversations, I’m going with Fleur, who is again, territorial of the one she loves. How she protects Bill, goes after Bill, sticks with Bill after his incident. Same thing with her sister. She was willing to die in that lake to free her sister. 

She’s adaptable. Trying to survive that [censored] tournament,  the Triwizard tournament is peak adaptability, you don’t know what’s going to be thrown at you and you have to figure it out. And then for rarity, on top of her being a gem of a person, she’s a Veela. Or she’s part Veela.

Amy: Mm-hmm.

Sidney: Yeah, I think that fits really well.

Stephanie: Definitely has that sassy snap as well that we’re thinking that was lacking with Lavender.

Sidney: I think that’s a great fit.

Liz: Why when you said that I pictured Jennifer Coolidge. I like that a lot and I feel like we don’t get to talk about Fleur often enough so I like that she came up.

Amy: I love Fleur. 

Sidney: She is a great character.

Amy: I am a big fan of Fleur.

Stephanie: She really is.

Liz: What does Fleur think of the new Epic Universe portal though?

Stephanie: Different. Conversation.

Amy: I don’t know.

[Laughter]

Sidney: I have no idea what to say to that.

Liz: What does she think of the Americanized Wizarding France.

Amy: I’m sure she would have much commentary.

Liz: Very much.

Stephanie: Not nice comments, very direct and pointed comments.

Liz: Yes.

Sidney: I hated her when I read the books as a kid and now I’m like ‘no she’s my hero. I want to be her. She’s great.’ [M-hmm]

Liz: She ages like fine wine. The older you get, the better she is.

Sidney: Once you root out that internalized sexism, [Yeah] then you’re like, wow, she’s actually a really good character.

[Laughter]

Amy: Yeah. So, my suggestion, because I had to go with a Fantastic Beasts character, obviously. I thought of Queenie for a lot of the same reasons that would make it really a good Patronus for Fleur. 

I think those also apply to Queenie in that she is, she’s very protective of those she loves. She’s literally willing to join the dark side to try and keep Jacob. She is also rare as a Legilimens. As a true Legilimens. [Yeah] 

I think she’s got that very like, she’s got the feminine exterior, but the aggressive side that definitely comes out as well. I do think that she would match well with an Occamy. 

Liz: I really like that. I’m like, [Yeah. I agree] all the characters that we’ve talked about in segments like this up to this point, I feel like Queenie is the one to me that I’m like, yeah, no, she has to have a magical creature Patronus. [Yeah] Out of all of them. I feel that’s the bottom line for her.

Amy: Yeah, and if you think about adaptability as well, I mean, she’s able to adapt in so many different spaces and kind of be what she needs to be in that moment [M-hmm]in order to get what she needs and [Yeah] to survive the moment as well. So I think, yeah.

Stephanie: Yeah, no, I think that one’s really, really fitting.

Liz: That one, yeah. I really like that. I like both. You guys had better picks than me, [Those were good] but I went with what came to my brain first. Or else I’d overthink it.

Amy: You had to be the ‘hear me out’ of this episode.

Sidney: All three of you had a really good idea. 

Liz: When am I not the ‘here me out’? 

Sidney: Well Hold on. I have a ‘hear me out’.

Stephanie: I think Sid’s gonna beat you out on the ‘hear me out’.

Liz: I’m ready. I’m ready. Yeah.

Sidney: No, I have a very serious suggestion on this.

Liz: I love it. Let’s go.

Sidney: If we’re thinking about characters that are really adaptable and have a little bit of a bite, a little snap to them. A little magical snap. Characters who are extra magical deserve that rare Patronus. 

A character who has been through a whole lot and adapted to all of it and always living their best life, I’m gonna say Dobby.

[Laughter]

Stephanie: I thought you were gonna go Lupin for a second.

[Laughter]

Liz: Dobby is not where I thought you were going.

[Laughter]

Amy: Dobby gets a wand, learns how to cast a Patronus and It’s the rarest Patronus ever. 

[Laughter]

Liz: I love that for Dobby.

Sidney: I thought you’d enjoy that concept.

Amy: Oh Dobby.

Liz: I love that for him.

Sidney: Isn’t it great. He deserves it.

Liz: He does! 

Amy: Justice for Dobby.

Stephanie: Literally.

Sidney: Justice for Dobby.

Liz: Dobby deserves all the good. 

Stephanie: I think Dobby is now going to get his own bonus episode because I feel like we could have a really deep discussion or a really good discussion about house elves and Dobby in particular and Patronuses.

Liz: Yes.

[Laughter]

Sidney: Another one that might already be on our list, but I’m going to toss it out here while we’re on this topic is, do we have a bonus episode laid out yet for werewolf Patronus? 

Liz: I don’t know.

Sidney: Because that is Lupin’s Patronus, but it’s not on the list.

Stephanie: Lupin’s is a wolf, not a werewolf.

Liz: Yeah.

Sidney: Yeah, yeah, you’re right. Okay, never mind. I take it back. 

Liz: I think we have something somewhere though. I feel like we’ve talked about diving deeper into it before.

Stephanie: I can write it down. don’t have Lucy’s list. Lucy also has a list.

Sidney: With all of that said and with that lovely image in your mind to dwell on for the rest of the evening, I would like to invite everyone to join us back for next week’s episode when we talk about the Buffalo Patronus. 

In the meantime, as always, you can find us on Facebook, TikTok and Instagram at ExpectoPodtronum. You can find us on Twitter at ExpectoPod. And you can always show support for our podcast on Patreon by visiting patreon.com/expectopodtronum and becoming a patron of the show. 

We would love to hear from anyone who is listening to this show. So you can send a patroness to any of our social media outlets or email us at expectopodtronum@gmail.com. Leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. And with that said, I’m Sidney.

Amy: I’m Amy.

Liz: I’m Liz.

Stephanie: I’m Stephanie and always remember a piece of chocolate a day will keep the Dementors away.

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