Stephanie:🎶 Hello and welcome to Season Two, Episode Six of Expecto Podtronum, a podcast dedicated to all things Patronuses. 🎶

I’m your host, Stephanie.

Amy: I’m Amy.

Lucy: I’m Lucy. 

Carolyn: And I’m Carolyn. And today we will be talking about the magpie.

Stephanie:  And my boys because this is their Patronus [Yup. Definitely}. A magpie is believed to be the most intelligent bird in the world and it’s related to crows and jays. If it is related to crows, you know it has to be pretty intelligent because crows themselves are intelligent birds.

But that is information for a later episode. Most magpies are lumped under the scientific name Pika Pika. 

Carolyn: What? Their scientific name is what? 

Amy: Which is so fun to say. Pika Pika. 

Carolyn: Pikachu?

[Laughter]

Stephanie: I don’t know, but that’s what it is.

Carolyn: I’m sorry, I have children, obsessed with Pokemon. I did not know a Magpie was a living Pokemon.

Amy: Apparently.

Stephanie: Scientific name Pika Pika.

Carolyn: My nine year old is gonna love that.

[Laughter]

Stephanie: But within that, there are several distinct variations that are considered their own species. There’s a lot of magpies out there and I am not going to list them all. However, if you love magpies and you want to know more about how many there are, feel free to look that up yourselves. 

The only kind of magpie that lives in the United Kingdom though is the Eurasian Magpie. This one has a black head with a white belly and sides. And then there’s also blue on its wings, sides, and tail. In bright light, it looks really pretty.

Lucy: It does and I did not expect a magpie to look pretty because I only know Australian Magpies [I know!] and they look terrifying and, no offense to magpies, ugly.

[Laughter]

Stephanie: I was expecting a crow or a pigeon or something like that when I originally heard magpie, so I’m really excited about how pretty it is. But if you look at it in super bright light, the blue feathers shimmer and shine, which I really loved as the idea for a Patronus. I feel it gives it an extra little magical touch.

They’re omnivores. They eat grains, small mammals, bugs, and even carrion like vultures. Eurasian magpies are home bodies. Studies in the UK found that most magpies build their own nests no more than 800 meters from the nests that they were born in. 

They’re considered an incredibly intelligent bird. And their brain-to-body mass ratio is similar to that of great apes, meaning that they have similar cognitive abilities to great apes. So smart birb. Very smart birb

Lucy: . We love a smart birb. 

Stephanie: Birb, Birb, Birb is the word. And then when they mate, they are monogamous, so they do mate for life.

Lucy: Awww

Amy: That makes so much sense with Fred and George. Not that they’re mates, but you know that they’re…

Carolyn: Bonded for life. Cause their twins

Stephanie: Each other’s people.

Amy: Yeah

Lucy: I’m gonna bring a bit of Australian magpies into this conversation because this is how I always imagine the magpie and it will make sense later on with my little note of I don’t think this is Fred and Georges Patronus. 

The Australian magpie is all black and with white as well in them and during the spring they are very mean to people especially they don’t like cyclists or pedestrians. We have signs up where magpies normally mate that say “beware, its swooping season.” 

Stephanie: ITS SWOOPING SEASON!

Lucy: Yeah

Amy: Just like everything else in Australia, even the magpies are out to get you. [Laughter]

Lucy: Oh yeah, if you want to look up, I’ll send you guys a little image. 

Stephanie: It’s swooping season..

Carolyn: Those sound like a bird that actually lives in Illinois where I’m from. It’s called a red-winged blackbird and they are aggressive and territorial and total jerks.

[Laughter]

Lucy: This image shows what bicycle people have to wear during the swooping season. We really get our art and craft out.

[Laughter]

Carolyn: Wait, where did it go? Ah

Amy: What?

Carolyn: Oh my god!

Amy: Ok.

Lucy: Yeah.

Carolyn: You guys have to put that on your helmet?

Lucy: Oh yeah, because otherwise this happens. 

Amy: Oh no. {Gasp]

Lucy: The first image is a helmet with zip ties tied around so it makes spikes. And then the next picture is of a swooping Magpie with a bicycle rider.

Amy: You know, at least you’ve got a helmet on though, so your head’s protected.

Lucy: Yeah, and you want to also wear sunglasses because apparently sometimes they go for the eyes.{Oh} {Geeze} Meanwhile in Australia..

[Laughter]

Amy: Oh Gosh

Carolyn: In Australia, everything is still trying to kill you.

Lucy: Yeah. The magpies are the ones that do this because they’re aggressively territorial and they try to drive away threats to keep their little chicks safe in the nest. {Laughter]

Anytime I walk past a magpie I’m just like ‘Oh, oh, oh. Head down, head down. Walk, walk, walk.’ {Laughter]

Carolyn: Yeah, that sounds like whenever I see this well… I’ve moved. Now I don’t know what the new track looks like that I live close to but there was this track where we lived and we would go walk it and you had to be careful because that time of year they would start swinging at you {Yep} and trying to get you away. I’m like ‘I’m just walking I swear. I swear!’

[Laughter]

Lucy: Yep, now you know it’s called swooping

Carolyn: I now have a name for it. I’m going to tell my husband. He’ll love it.

[Laughter]

Lucy: And another fun fact, in Australia, In Aussie Rules, our Australian Football League, we have a team called Collingwood and their nickname are the Magpies. 

Stephanie: Ahhh.

Lucy: Yeah, they’re very… I’d say they live up to the traits of a Magpie. I’ll just say that. The fan base.

Amy: When the season’s about to begin, they should really put up advertisements that say ‘It’s swooping season’ with pictures of the team.

Lucy: Literally. When you know there’s a game happening you’re like ‘okay I’m just gonna avoid that area’ {Laughter] especially if they lose.

Amy: Yeah, right. Time for some folklore and mythology. With magpies, their probably most well known folklore is the counting of them. If you’ve ever heard the one for sorrow, two for joy rhyme about magpies, this comes from an old English nursery rhyme dating back to at least 1780, but probably before then. 

1780 is the first time it was actually written down and recorded. There are a bunch of different versions of this rhyme and it really varies by region. I put two versions in here but there’s way more than two versions, but these are the two that I came across the most. 

Version one:  One for sorrow, two for joy, three for a girl, four for a boy. Five for silver, six for gold, seven for a secret, never to be told.

Lucy: I’m aiming to see six together so I can get the gold.

Amy: Yeah, exactly. The idea is the number of magpies you see at once signifies different fortunes to be had later.

Lucy: I need all the fortune [Oh cool] I can get at this point. Apart from the kids, I don’t need the kids. No.

[Laughter]

Amy: Version 2 was much darker. [Oh no] One for sorrow, two for joy, three for a funeral, four for birth, five for heaven, six for hell, seven for the devil, his own self.

Lucy: I like version one

Carolyn: Yeah, like version one.

Stephanie: The first one rhymes better too.

Amy: Yeah, Version two is very similar to another 13 line version that I found that goes all the way to the number 13. And 13 is being the one noting the devil, his own self. 

That’s supposed to mean that those seven magpies are the devil basically in magpie form. Yeah, fun times. Nursery rhymes are always {I like version one] a little dark

[Laughter]

Lucy: Why do nursery rhymes always have to do with something dark? Like how Ring Around the Rosie had to do with… what was it?

Amy: The plague. 

Lucy: The plague. I was like ‘I did not need to know that.’

Amy: Yeah, yeah. This little rhyme is supposedly the reason why JKR said this Patronus fits the Weasley twins.

Lucy: Which one? The first version or the second version?

[Laughter]

Stephanie: Both of them. They are both for joy.

Carolyn:  Both start the same

Amy: Very specifically the one for sorrow, two for joy thing because two for joy. Yay, Fred and George. One for sorrow,  oh no, sad. One’s gone, one’s dead. 

Lucy: Ok.

Amy: Yeah. It’s still a dark twist.

[Laughter]

Carolyn: That can’t be the only reason she picked it because I do think there are more parallels, but okay.

Amy: Yes. I think there’s more parallels like the whole trickster kind of thing. Which I know is in a lot of legends and stuff. They’re more like trickster type birds too. Yeah. Yay rhymes. 

To move on to some other parts of the world, in ancient Rome, the magpie is associated with magic and fortune telling. In Scandinavian folklore, witches sometimes rode magpies or turned into them. 

In German culture, magpies were considered to be from the underworld. In Scottish folklore, the magpie is said to have a drop of the devil’s blood on its tongue. Another tie to the devil. Lots of witchcraft and devil going on here. [Laughter] 

Outside of Europe, cultures seem to have a much more positive view of the magpie. According to some Native American legends, magpies were friends to hunter-gatherer tribes. I didn’t look up specific stories, but I know I’ve heard some where, like I said, they’re more of the trickster, prankster bird in some stories. A little more lighthearted. 

In Korea, this bird is said to bring good news, and in China, the magpie is seen as a symbol of good fortune and happiness.

Lucy: And lastly, in Australia, especially in Western Australia, according to the Noongar Dreamtime Stories. Once the sky used to be close to the ground, so the trees could not grow, people had to crawl, and all the birds were forced to walk everywhere. According to their stories, the magpies worked together and managed to prop up the sky with sticks. So that it wouldn’t collapse again.

Stephanie: That’s so cute! 

Carolyn: That’s fun. 

Amy: Again, using their cleverness. 

Carolyn: Alright. On to some symbolism, which I think had some overlap with mythology. The magpie teaches you how to master the art of persuasion while showing you how to avoid superficiality. The power and symbolism of communication are well within the magpie’s abilities, and I think this ties into their intelligence. It’s said that they can even learn a few human words. Wouldn’t surprise me if that were true.

In turn it is said they represent different ways humans communicate and teaching a lesson that we should be careful what we say. Words are considered to have power. Magpies and seeing them stress the importance of balancing your self-expression and idle talk. The magpie is an omen of good fortune. I think that ties in with the, was it Korean folklore? Yeah, or good news. Yeah, and China. That one tied in more with Asia. 

Another thing magpies kind of symbolize, is if you have plans on hold for whatever reason,  seeing a magpie is supposed to be the universe telling you to go ahead and take that leap. [Hmm] Tying in with the rhymes, the number of magpies changed the meanings. Eight would mean a coming delay, but nine could mean that love was on the horizon.

I think that this was symbolism and symbology, kind of trying to stretch the amount of things that that could cover because not only did it mean possibly love on the horizon, but it could mean a celebration or a baby or lasting marital happiness. Lots of options.

[Laughter]

Amy: Covering all the bases

Carolyn: Covering all your bases people. 

[Laughter]

Carolyn: The one that I thought tied in really well though was magpies meaning or symbolizing that life has two sides. Luck and prosperity or deception and fraud. They are known to be lovers of shiny things. I think we all kind of have that mental image of the magpie [Mm-hmm] collecting things, but this can also represent materialism and superficiality. 

It’s more of a warning to not let appearances distract you. Then the other thing that came up a lot was in dreams and to count how many you see. I think that also tied in with the nursery rhyme. They were talking about three as a sign of the birth of a girl and four for a boy and six meaning wealth. I think they liked version one too, when I was looking up the symbology.

[Laughter]

Lucy: I think everybody likes version one.

Carolyn: Well, it is a lot happier. [Laughter] But a lot of the symbolism I thought was touched on before with other things. But it was similar, the importance of two sides of things, which you could also say is a little bit of the twins. 

They can be really humorous and joking around, but then they can turn around and make these things. Weren’t they making the shield hats that were Protegeo Charms and selling them in the joke shop? [Mmm] While something can be humorous to them, it can also have a practical side. So kind of that duality.

Stephanie: So, is this Patronus right for our Weasley twins?

[🎶Does this Patronus fit the character it belongs to? Find out on The Patronus is Right.🎶]

Carolyn: I think yes, and I think that because magpies are intelligent and resourceful. They even talk about that with the mimicking or the potential for mimicking human speech. Fred and George, you see it as early as book four when they’re trying to test their products and sell them on the side and Molly’s all mad at them. 

They have a goal in mind. They want to be successful. [Yeah] They want to build something. And I think that that kind of overlaps with the way magpies kind of seemed determined to me. I don’t think we said any of that in our breakdown of the animal, but that’s how they come across to me. As a very determined animal.

Amy: The liking shiny things thing, I don’t really think Fred and George are very superficial, but they are flashy. 

Carolyn: Yeah

Amy: They like wearing those flashy suits they get. 

Carolyn: Yeah, That’s true. 

Amy: You know, they’re a little out there, right? They’re very like, ‘yay, look at us.’

Stephanie: Look at what they did when they left. Look at the show they put on. 

Amy: Right! They’re all about the big display. 

Stephanie: The wow factor. 

Amy: Yes, the wow factor. That’s a good way to put it. I like this for them too, honestly.

Carolyn: I don’t have any issues with it. I put a note in here, but I wonder, given the importance of how many of them you see, what if multiple come out of the wand when you’re casting your Patronus? And does that tie in in some capacity? I don’t know.

Amy: Does your Patronus become a way to predict the future? 

Carolyn: That’s kind of where I was going.

Amy: It’s a Patronus, but it’s also a divination.

Stephanie: That’s a whole new level of divination

Amy: Yup

Lucy: I don’t know if I like that

Carolyn: I’m sure.Professor Trelawney would love that. [Laughter] Another way to predict a student’s death.

Lucy: Like I said before, I don’t like that this is Fred and George’s Patronus. Again, because I only really pictured the Australian Magpie. Because they’re very mean during mating season, but I guess that’s normal for birds. 

They’re very protective, which I can sort of see Fred and George being. But I always thought that their Patronus was a fox. I like being a fox. I thought they’re a bit more sneaky like foxes where this… Yeah, I just don’t like them being magpies.

[Laughter]

Stephanie: If you take out the Australian imaging, where it’s not that magpie, can you see it fitting in other ways or can you not see it? Like ‘nope, that is the magpie I see, I cannot get over it, that is what it is.’

Lucy: Yeah, that is just the magpie I see. I tried thinking maybe it could be the UK version. But even that one, I don’t know if it really fits them either. I don’t know. [Mhmm]There’s something about it being a magpie. Just like, ‘eh no.’

Amy: It sounds like we need to present some different options to Lucy for what Fred and George…or who’s Patronus the magpie could be. .

Lucy: From the beginning I always thought it was a fox. Even before doing this I thought they were foxes and then when I got told they were magpies, I believed they were collating who’s Patronus is whose, I was like no. For me they’ve always been foxes and I think that’s fan fiction’s problem.

Amy: Yeah, yeah.

[Laughter]

Stephanie: I think we have time to squeeze in a quick bonus segment of Whose Patronus is it Anyway?

[🎶Which character could fit this Patronus? Find out on Whose Patronus is it Anyway?🎶]

Amy: Yes, we did have some ideas for who else could possibly have a magpie Patronus. My first thought, going off of how intelligent magpies are, and it’s a bird, I thought ’okay, what Ravenclaw could this fit?’ 

And I kind of like this for Cho better than a swan. She’s clearly super smart. I like the parallel of the folklore to do with witches riding magpies. Cho plays Quidditch and rides a broom to fly. [Okay]

Magpies are misunderstood and misinterpreted in folklore. And I’ve always kind of felt Cho kind of got a raw deal. Because we see her through the lens of Harry’s point of view. And he’s kind of oblivious.

Carolyn: First, obsessed with her, then oblivious.

Amy: And totally insensitive [Yeah] because he’s Harry. Yeah, I like the magpie for Cho. That’s my vote.

Stephanie: Regardless of what bird we give Cho, Lucy hates it. She has an issue with swans.  They’ve attacked her. She has an issue with magpies. They’ve attacked her.

Amy: Lucy, I think the problem is the Australian wildlife.

[Laughter]

Lucy: I’ve never been attacked by a magpie. I feel between the football team and what they do during the mating season, not a good combo down here.

[Laughter]

Yeah, we can blame it on the Australian wildlife. They’re out to get you, somehow we’re still alive.

[Laughter]

Stephanie: Everything is. I feel like even the sun is.

Carolyn: Everything is out to kill you. 

Lucy: Just get ready for the shark episode everybody. 

Amy: Oh, I can’t wait. 

Lucy: I’m going to give you some facts.

[Laughter]

Stephanie: We do have a shark episode. I forgot. was like, ‘we have a shark?’ We do. Cause I was like, ‘why isn’t it a whale?’ That’s a separate episode and that’s a valid question for that episode.

Carolyn: Because a whale would be too big coming out of your wand.

[Laughter]

Stephanie: It’s a [censored] shark!

Carolyn:  I was throwing out the obvious ridiculous answer.

Stephanie: I didn’t say it was a Humpback Whale. 

Lucy: Imagine if it’s a great white coming out. Those aren’t small.

[Laughter]

Carolyn: That’s true, that’s true. Very good point. We do not know what kind of shark.

Amy: I mean, most of these animals are not small, so… except for the jaunty little fellows.

Carolyn: Except our jaunty little fellows. 

[Laughter]

Amy: As we have established. According to our chart.

Carolyn: Jack Russel or smaller, jaunty little fellow.

Lucy: We need to start an article called The Jaunty Little Fellows.

Amy: Everyone else, too big.

Stephanie: Under that logic, does that mean a magpie is a jaunty little fellow or does it have to have four legs?

Lucy: No

Carolyn: Yes, it is.

Amy: It does 

Carolyn: I mean-by that logic…

Lucy: But they are not jaunty. They are not fun. 

Amy: If you can picture a cartoon version of them wearing a top hat and carrying a walking stick, they are in fact a jaunty little fellow.

Carolyn: I can, but it’s going to look like a weird cross between Woody the Woodpecker and a magpie. 

Amy: That’s the test. 

[Laughter]

Carolyn: I was reading Amy’s suggestion and then of course, okay, hear me out. It made me think of Lockhart. And the reason I think of Lockhart, is he is blindly followed and adored by women, mostly because of his looks. And the symbology suggests that magpies are a warning of falling for appearances. 

He’s materialistic and superficial and proven to be a fraud over the course of the book. In my mind, if it is his Patronus, and that would only be because it’s a warning to everyone else, run away.

Amy: I feel Lucy will like this one because I think she wants the magpie to be for a character she does not like.

Carolyn: Exactly. There you go. I’ve saved Lucy. 

Lucy: I do like this one.

[Laughter]

Amy: I knew it. We could have said the magpie would be better for Bellatrix than Fred and George and Lucy would be like, ‘yes!’ 

Lucy: No, not for Bellatrix, no. Yeah, Bellatrix is an interesting character. I actually like her character arc. It’s very interesting. But Lockart, I was like, ‘nah. You’re almost on the same level as Umbridge.’

Carolyn: Yeah, this only works as a warning. I don’t think of this as, I don’t associate magpies with frauds. Tricks, maybe, but not frauds. So, I don’t know.

Stephanie: I’m not mad at it. I kinda like it.

[Laughter]

Carolyn: Don’t tell me this season I’m actually getting my act together. And you guys are gonna like my crazy suggestions.

Amy: Carolyn has a reputation though. [Laughter]

Stephanie: We are six episodes in and this is the first time you have had a valid here me out that has come from left field. The others have made a lot of sense. This is the first one you had to sell me on. 

Carolyn: I had to sell you but I sold you. See but that’s my point, I sold you, This is not good. This is the wrong precedent. I got to go back to crazy.

Lucy: Then think of my next one because I randomly put one down and this is purely based on the poems.

Carolyn: I think Lucy’s going to take my spot as the crazy suggestion person.

Amy: Oh no.

Carolyn: You gotta defend this Lucy. 

Lucy: I don’t know. It literally just popped in my head. It’s like, this could be Molly Weasley based on the two poems. I was like, ‘I don’t know if I like that.’

Stephanie: If you don’t like it for her sons, why are we giving it to their mother?

[Laughter]

Lucy: Well, mainly because… 

Stephanie: WHAT DID MOLLY DO?! 

Lucy: I’m thinking she is a smart woman. I give her that. But, the amount of magpies you see relates to something in the poem. Four represents all the births she’s had. She had to go to a lot of funerals. She did lose a lot of members of her family. One for the sorrow of losing her son. Two for all the joy she had as having kids. 

Anyway, that’s just my left field suggestion. I was like, maybe somewhere in the abyss, the poem could relate to Molly. Because, the author did say the twins related to the poem. 

Amy: True, true.

Lucy: So, that’s as far as my head got.

Amy: I feel that should be an entire episode on its own, analyzing the poem, figuring out if it applies to Molly Weasley. [Laughter] That can be the next Chaos Chat over on Patreon.

Lucy: I’ll suggest that. 

Stephanie: There you go. 

Lucy: Liz and I will have the blackboard up with all the lines.

Stephanie: There’ll be red one string [Red String] everywhere.

Stephanie: I love it

Amy: Alright, well I think that about wraps up this episode. You can join us next week when we talk about the connection between twins and Patronuses. We segue right from Fred and George into the twins episode.

Stephanie: Of course, I planned it that way.

Amy: Yes, Steph is the mastermind. [Laughter] You can find us over on Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram at Expecto Podtronum, over on Twitter at ExpectoPod, and you can support the show on Patreon at patreon.com/ExpectoPodtronum. 

We’ve got some bonus episodes coming out every month over there and lots of goodies for all of you who support our show and help us keep things running.

We would love to hear from you, so send us a Patronus to any of our social media outlets or email us at expectopatronum@gmail.com and please leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Until next time!

Lucy: See ya! 

Carolyn: Bye!

Stephanie: Remember, a piece of chocolate a day will keep the dementors away.

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