Stephanie: 🎶 Hello and welcome to Season 2, Episode 2 of Expecto Patronum, a podcast dedicated to all things Patronuses.🎶 I’m your host Stephanie! 

Amy: I’m Amy.

Lucy:  I’m Lucy. 

Liz: And I’m Liz and today we will be talking about the piebald horse.

Amy: It’s a horse episode everybody! 

Lucy: Yeah, we did do a special little behind the scenes on this one as well, didn’t we?

Liz:  We did, we did. You’re able to see part of our process of researching this one as a bonus episode available now on our Patreon. [Yeah] Wow, we started right out the gates with a Patreon plug. [Laughter]

Amy: Shameless plugs.

[Laughter]

Lucy: The key we found out of that research was it was a horse shaped horse. [It was]

Liz: It’s a horse shaped horse.

Amy: We had to confirm this. We’re one season wiser now. We now know what horses are shaped like. Things are looking up.

Stephanie: I still think a Thestral is horse shaped. 

Liz: It’s easier to identify the horse-shaped horses now.

Lucy: This one was a bit hard because it did look like a little bit of a cow so we have to confirm.

Liz: I think it only looks like a cow to you.

[Laughter]

Lucy: In my defense [So, Liz]  I was tired.

Amy: Liz, I think you need to explain these cow spots and how this works and the sciencey facts here.

Liz: I think so. Today we are talking about a piebald horse. Piebald is referring to the color of the horse, not the breed. We learned that well last season. Unless it’s a thestral, then all things are out the window. 

[Laughter] 

Piebald is referring to the pattern, which is a base coat of typically black that has white spots on it. If you’ve ever wondered if it is white with black spots or black with white spots, a piebald is black with white spots.

Stephanie: So, not a cow. It tends to be…

Liz: Well, piebald as a term isn’t just used on horses. We use it on dogs and birds and also cows.

Stephanie: Okay.

Amy: If you want to be really fancy [What about zebras?] You could just be like, that’s a piebald cow. And people would be like, whoa. [I don’t know if we..] you know your stuff.

Stephanie: Is a zebra horse shaped? [Yes] Should we save that for the zebra episode? Do we have a zebra episode?

Liz: I don’t think we have a zebra episode. Sorry.

Amy: What a shame.

[Laughter]

Lucy: No, but Amy, I am going to start using that thing just said, where that’s a piebald cow.

Liz: Piebald cow. Yes,

Lucy: I’m going to say that to my friend who works in agriculture. See what she says.

[Laughter]

Liz: Oh, no. Okay. Piebald is caused by a genetic variation that impacts where the pigment distribution is in the coat. And it typically results in asymmetrical patches. They can be symmetrical, but it requires really specific genetic things to happen that I don’t quite understand because all of this is rooted in embryonic development. And I don’t know that great. We’re getting low-key science with Liz today. [Laughter] 

The location of the spots varies based on where the pigment cells, called melanoblasts or melanoblasts,I heard of both ways when I was looking up stuff to confirm, they migrate to different spots while the animal is an embryo. [Hmm. Yeah] I don’t understand enough about embryos and their development specifically in horses or anything to talk about that more. 

Genetically, they’re a black base coat and then the horse has the allele for one of three basic spotting patterns to then overlay that base color. The most common is the Tobiano. That’s a dominant gene, so it makes sense that it’s the most common. And it’s what we typically see in pied horses. It’s what causes the white to be on the legs and have very clean, crisp, outlined areas.

Sometimes in other versions, the patches might not seem as defined or may be really muddy. But in a Tobiano, the most common gene for a pied horse, they’re very crisp, clean lines. It’s very easy to tell the white from the black, and there’s not a lot of bleeding between the colors.

Stephanie: Nice and organized horse. 

Lucy: Yeah. Not to be confused with painted horses. Painted horses are not the same as a piebald horse, though they can look very similar. A piebald horse refers to any horse with the black and white coat patterning, regardless of breed.

 In contrast, a painted horse is a specific breed recognized by the American Painted Horse Association. I didn’t know they had their own association.

Stephanie: There’s a whole association. 

Amy: How fancy. 

Lucy: They are also not the same as an Appaloosa horse. 

Amy: Yes.

Lucy: It’s all about genetics as Liz has told us.

Liz: Sorry. [Laughter] When in doubt, cannot use pied and paint interchangeably or piebald, and paint interchangeably. You can use pied and piebald interchangeably to refer to the horse. 

Lucy: Not confusing at all! 

Liz: I know!

[Laughter]

Stephanie: Horses make it so easy!

[Laughter]

Lucy: And also you can’t be confused with the skewballs. [What? They are white patches on any colour other than black.

Liz: Nice.

Stephanie: So, piebald is literally just black base white dots. No other colors pretty much? 

Liz: Yep.

Amy: Yes.

Liz: Yeah, I think sometimes it’s used interchangeably, but that’s not the actual genetic definition of it.

Lucy: Yeah. These horses have been around for a long time. There’s evidence of the horses with white spotted coats in ancient times depicted in pottery and other forms of art. Although they were very popular in Europe back in the day, they eventually lost their attraction. I don’t know why, we can dive deeper into that another time. 

A lot of them came over to the Americas where they were very popular with the Native Americans. And today the largest amount of spotted horses still exist in the United States. The horses brought from Europe arrived with the Spanish Conquistadors, but mostly originated from Arabian ancestry. [Yeah. Yeah, that works] 

Basically they’re from Arabian countries and then the Spanish brought them over to the United States. No, they went to Europe and the Spanish brought the road to the United States because Europe didn’t like them anymore. Ta-da. 

[Laughter]

Liz: Wow. That’s so rude of Europe. 

Stephanie: Taking European rejects.

Amy: We just need just that clip of Lucy explaining. [Laughter] Just title it ‘Lucy Explains: Piebald Horse.’ 

[Laughter]

Lucy: Oh good. And then I did have this random thought while we were doing our research and I thought we need to discuss it here since it’s all about the Patronus. 

We can’t tell what colour a Patronus is so that basically means that all the horses just look the same. [Mhmm] But can we tell patterns? Is this the Patronus that we can tell compared to every other Patronus horse?

Amy: I feel you would have to because even with animals that don’t have a specific pattern on them, the shades and the variations in the smoke and the silver, you would need that anyway to even make the shape of an animal [Mhmm] because you need shadows and lightness and darkness and things like that. 

If we’re going by that logic…seems to me you could have variations in lightness and darkness that would make the patterns like spots or stripes and things like that as well.

Stephanie: I think that makes sense because also don’t we hear that McGonagall’s Patronus has the same markings around its eyes as she does when she casts it later on in the books? I feel if we can see those markings then I feel that has to translate to other animals as well. I mean McGonagall’s a bad {censored} but…

Liz: I guess then we could probably see the lines of where the spots are. We probably wouldn’t be able to tell if it was a piebald horse versus a skewball horse.

Amy: Right. [Laughter]

Lucy: We could tell though if it’s a piebald horse or a cow.

Liz: Yes!

Amy: Yes!

[Laughter]

Liz: Well, because a cow is not a horse-shaped horse. So…

[Laughter]

Amy: Oh no. We’re never living down horse shaped.

Stephanie: No, I’m not.

Liz: It’s part of the podcast lore

Amy: It really is,

Stephanie: Who named the horse skewball? Why is that? Sorry I’m backtracking slightly

Liz: No, it’s a reference to if it’s a different color like a brown, which is a very generalized horse color because there’s a lot of shades of brown [Mhmm] because of all the different genes like what we talked about some last season against with a white spot. 

I think it’s just a way to differentiate between the colors. Especially because other breeds of animals do that kind of thing too. [Yeah] There’s the tortoise shell cat but then tortoise shell and white means the whites added in, right? [Mhmm]

People always try to make all the different color variations for literally anything. Even precious minerals now. There’s strawberry jasper and things like that. And I’m like, I don’t know what any of that means. I asked my husband because he’s a geologist and he says they’re all not real.

[Laughter]

Amy: You heard it here, folks. 

Lucy: Well, I thought skewball wasn’t real at first and then my brain just went somewhere else that no one needs to know where that went.

[Laughter]

Liz: No, we don’t. That’s not the podcast for that.

[Laughter]

Stephanie: As we’ve had to do in previous seasons and episodes, we selected a horse that is commonly piebald to help inform the personality and temperament information because otherwise it’s really wide and very varied. [Very open] Very broad. Broad is the word [Yes] that was supposed to come after the first varied. Very broad. 

We selected the Irish Cobb. This horse is also known as the Gypsy Vanner, but we will be referring to it as the Irish Cob, which is one of its other names.

Lucy: Again, not confusing at all.

Liz:  No, I believe this is one of those horses that there’s been a lot of renaming campaigns for because of their original name and the use.

Lucy: I feel we just need an abridged version, a kids version of this. So it’s like this, this, this, this, this. Just with the key points. [Yes] We have a little map as well. It’s like this is where it came from.

[Laughter]

Liz: I don’t have time to make that.

Stephanie: I do like diagrams.

Lucy: I’ll add it to the list of things that I might do.

Stephanie: Maybe one day.

Lucy: Yeah. 

Stephanie: Irish Cobb are known for having a sweet temperament and are very calm. They are a draft horse, which makes them very stocky in appearance. With that information, I understand slightly more why Lucy could think it was a cow.

[Laughter]

They are strong and laid back, this nature makes them a great family horse or a great one for children to learn how to ride on. Due to their feathering, which is their ground length hair completely around the hoof, they do require quite a bit of grooming, which leads them to be classified as more of a high maintenance horse than some of the other horses we have covered in previous seasons. [hmm

Liz: That tracks though, because imagine if the hair gets too long and they’re stepping on it, I bet it gets really knotted up [Mhmm] and scraggly. [Dirt gets in it] And if you’re showing the horsey, that’s probably not ideal.

Stephanie: No, not at all for show.

Amy: Yeah, a little bit about the etymology as well of the term piebald. According to Bay Area Equestrian Network, the term piebald comes from pie meaning mixed and bald meaning white patches.

Liz: Well that tracks. 

Lucy: I thought it was pie, like a pie and bald as in there’s no hair. 

[Laughter]

Stephanie: That is a completely different animal. Pie shaped horse. 

[Laughter]

Liz: I hope all of your pies are bald. Genuinely. [Laughter] I hope there is no hair in the pies you’re eating. What are they doing down there in Tassie?

Lucy: No, but I do have to tell you a funny story that you probably don’t want to come to Australia after I tell you.

Stephanie: Oh,no.

Amy: Oh, no. 

Liz: Then don’t tell me. We’ll save that for later.

Lucy: When you’re actually here? 

Liz: Yeah, once I’m already there, once I’m already on the plane.

[Laughter]

Amy: Okay, a little symbolism to cover our symbolism and folklore section here. Folklore and cultural beliefs range from luck and protection to more divine connections for the piebald. In ancient times, they were considered unique, resulting in them holding a place of honor.

Some examples of this in the United Kingdom, piebald horses have been associated with folklore and mythology, often portrayed as mythical creatures in ancient tales. In Spanish culture, these horses have held symbolic importance, often depicted in art and literature as representations of strength and nobility.

Lucy: Then why did they give them to the Americans?

Liz: Everything falls out of fashion at some point.

Stephanie: I was going to say they bred too many and they weren’t uncommon anymore. They became popular, [That’s true ]so the royals didn’t want them anymore.

Liz: . 

Lucy: They want them to be rare again. [Yes] Ship them off, they’ll be fine.

Amy: Yes. Their striking appearance has historically made them a prime subject of various forms of art. Which yes, when we were trying to research this, every time I googled a piebald horse, 50 billion paintings came up. [There were a lot of paintings] From auction websites. Lots of paintings of the piebald.

They were seen as ambassadors of change, transformation, and harmony in various cultures. Contrasting colors stand for balance of opposing forces and symbols of unity and diversity.

Liz: I like that

Stephanie: Me too. That’s like the animal version of the yin and yang symbol. 

Amy: Yeah.

Liz: I think a similar thought of balance and unity. I like that. Combined with what we now know about the temperament of an Irish Cobb, that feels like it makes a lot of sense, balanced, calm.

Lucy: I need to get a coffee after we finish recording this one because I just read the next segment as is this a horse? Not the horse.

[Laughter]

Amy: No, it’s a cow. 

[Laughter]

Stephanie: We have established it is a horse shaped horse.

Amy: Lucy just really wants to do a cow episode.

[Laughter]

Stephanie: We can do a bonus episode that is cows. 

Amy: We can do an episode about why a cow should be a Patronus. You can head it up. Do all sorts of research. 

Liz: I think that sounds like a good patronus bonus episode..

Lucy:  I’ll be the crazy person trying to convince everybody it’s a cow. 

Amy: Side note, I love cows. [Cows are cool] Cows are amazing. When I was a kid, I thought I was going to be a cow farmer. That was the ultimate goal. [Laughter] That I was going to have a dairy farm. [I love that] I told my mom she could work on my farm if she cleaned all the stalls. It was the plan.

Lucy: I’ll make your dreams come true. I’ll do a cow episode for bonus and I’ll photoshop you onto the farm. 

Amy: Excellent.

Liz: Perfect

[Laughter]

Lucy: It’s just called Amy’s farm.

[Laughter]

Liz: We need a photo of child Amy though to really drive home that it was a childhood dream.

Amy: Yes, to further sell this, my first word was tractor.

Liz: No! Really?

Lucy: I love that. 

Amy: Yes! 

[Laughter]

Liz: That is wild. 

Amy: I was committed to this.

[Laughter]

Lucy: When you retire, you could become a farmer. 

Amy: I could. 

Lucy: There is nothing stopping you. .

Liz: It’s true. It won’t be too late to get some cow shaped cows.

Amy: Yep, get me some cows, it’ll be great.

Lucy: Just mapped out Amy’s whole life.

Liz: Instead of cows, this is an episode about the piebald horse. [Yes] And because it’s a horse episode, means we get to have my favorite segment; Is This the Horse?

[🎶Could this Patronus belong to Ginny Weasley? Find out on ‘Is This the Horse?’🎶]

Amy: Okay, I’ll kick us off. I’m just going to say a very emphatic no. My reasoning, because this horse has such a distinctive pattern to it. I feel, as we discussed earlier, we’d be able to see this pattern in the variations of silver. 

And even if we can’t see the color, I think we’d see these markings and it’d be kind of strange if this was the horse and those markings weren’t mentioned. It’s just a horse. It’s just described as just a horse. If they don’t say it’s a spotted horse, nothing like that, I think it would be odd to leave out that description.

Lucy: Yeah, I feel it’ll be a very simple horse if it’s just mentioned as just a horse.

Liz: Yeah, like one color.

Lucy: But also why would they give Ginny just a horse?

Liz: But maybe she has a horse that’s a really rare color, right? We have a lot of horses still to cover [Mhmm] and as we dive more into them, maybe one of these horses we have to talk about is this super rare genetic anomaly and cause I could picture something like that for Ginny totally. [Yeah]

But I said, no, I don’t think this fits Ginny based on the temperament of the horse. Cause Ginny is a polite person and she’s well mannered. I would say she needs a horse with a bit of a wild side. [Mhmm] That kind of falls in line with how fiery and fierce she can be and how passionate she is when it comes to the people she cares about. [Yeah] And I’m not seeing that in this.

Amy: Yeah, she needs a horse that’s more of a running horse, not a draft horse.

Liz: She needs one of the horses from the Spirit animated film. 

Amy: Yes.

Lucy: Yes, Great film. 

Liz: Wonderful film.

Lucy: I really feel like watching that now. Maybe tonight. [Okay] Just so I can confirm it is a horse.

[Laughter]

Stephanie: No, I agree. Ginny is too spunky, has too much personality for this to really fit in as her horse. And going back to what you guys were saying, [Yeah] all we have is the film. The books never actually mention what Ginny’s Patronus is. Like you were saying, Amy, there is no distinction in coloration or anything like that at all. It’s literally just the horse. I feel that’s further reasoning. why this is a big no.

Liz: Yeah, I feel this is the most sure I felt of a no of the horses we’ve talked about this far. I mean, to be fair, we’ve only talked about four horses so far, [but I feel this is the one that I immediately thought: no, this is not it. [Yeah} That’s all right. It gives us time. We have time to find Ginny’s horse.

[Laughter]

Lucy: We have a lot of time.

Amy: We’ve got a few more seasons.

Liz: We got plenty more horses.

Amy: All the time in the world.

Lucy: We’re not even halfway through the list.

[Laughter]

Liz: There’s a lot of Patronuses. A lot of Patronuses. We still have a lot of time.

Lucy: And that’s it for this episode everybody. You can join us next week when we talk about the shrew. And before then you can contact us on every single social media platform cause we are just that good. [Laughter] 

You can also find us on Patreon and we’ll love to hear from you. You can contact us on our email (Expectopodtronum@gmail.com)  if you don’t have any social media as well. We always love to hear your thoughts and opinions and if you have any questions for us, any theories. Our social media is all Expecto Podtronum (or ExpectoPod). We make it simple. 

Don’t forget to leave us a review and I’ll see you next time. That’s goodbye from me.

Amy: See you later.

Liz: Byyeee! 

Stephanie: And remember, a piece of chocolate a day will keep the dementors away.

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