Stephanie: Hello, and welcome to episode eight of Expecto Podtronum, a podcast dedicated to all things Patronuses. I’m your host Stephanie.

Lucy: I’m Lucy. 

Liz: And I’m Liz. And today we are going to be talking about the uses of the Patronus in the Harry Potter books! Woo! 

Lucy: I didn’t realize how many uses there were until I looked at this doc, and I was like, “Wow!” It’s actually used a fair bit.

Liz: It is, yeah. 

Stephanie: Yeah. Obviously more in the later books than the earlier books just due to the skill level of the wizards involved.

Liz: Yeah, 

Stephanie: But also, I kind of forgot about some of these uses, because I haven’t done a reread relatively recently, and the movies…don’t have some of them.

Lucy: Yeah. Yeah, I’m probably the same. I haven’t reread the books in ages. And I find that I end up quoting the movies and I go, “I don’t even know if this quote’s in the book, but we’re going to do it anyway!” [Laughter]

Liz: Which, I mean, we found that out with me during the Otter episode. I clearly have not read the books in a hot second and it shows. But it’s kind of nice to dive back in and see some of the book-isms again and be like, “Oh yeah!” because it’s like a little key turns in my brain and it like unlocks. I’m like, “Oh, right!” ‘Cause I won’t lie, fanfiction has ruined some things in terms of my memory. 

Lucy: Oh, same here. Same. I can’t tell if it’s canon or not anymore. I go, “Was that?” And then I go, “Oh yeah, it seems too out there for it to be actually canon.” [Laughter] But also, I like it. 

Liz: Right? But let’s get back on track. I’m going to be the adult of the episode. Uses of Patronuses. 

Stephanie: [Laughter] The first time that we see a Patronus used is the non-corporeal Patronus that is produced by Remus Lupin in Prisoner of Azkaban when the Dementors are searching the train for Sirius Black, and he has to protect the trio, Neville, and Ginny from… a Dementor who was actually on the train and coming into their compartment. 

Lucy: Does anybody have the book on them at the moment? 

Stephanie: Actually?

Liz: No. 

Lucy: Can you bring up that section? Because I’m trying to remember if this is just a movie thing, or is it actually stated in the books that Rumius Lupin’s Patronus didn’t make a shape? Because in the movie it doesn’t. 

Stephanie: I don’t think it does. Give me a minute. 

Lucy: Because then that would tie back into like you can control how much… I guess, what you want to put into it to make it have a shape? Because his shape is what, a moon? No, because he can make his shape into it.

Liz: No, that’s the Boggart. Right? 

Lucy: That’s the Boggart. Oh my god. 

Stephanie: The Boggart turns into a moon for Lupin.

Lucy: So much happened that year. 

Liz: So much happened. I firmly and will forever stand by that Prisoner of Azkaban is the true turning point in terms of tone and direction of the series because it’s when all those things are laid. And they do a good job of that in the movie, in my un-humble opinion. 

Stephanie: Yeah. I also completely forgot until I’m skimming this section that during the Dementor attack on the train – not really an attack…the search, Lupin’s just chilling with fire in his hand. 

Liz: As one does. [Laughter] As one does. Let me see, I’m going to try to pull it up on my digital copy. 

Stephanie: So Harry doesn’t see Remus cast the Patronus. He literally just casts it, they slap Harry to wake him up, Lupin gives him some chocolate, and then disappears to talk to the conductor. 

Liz: As one does.

Lucy: Can we just appreciate how they slap him? [Laughter] It’s not like a little shake, it’s a whack. 

Stephanie: And it says slapping, so that implies there was more than one slap to wake him up. 

Liz: Oh no! [Laughter]

Lucy: Don’t abuse the child anymore! 

Liz: He’s gone through enough!

Stephanie: So we actually don’t even know what it is at that point in the books. 

Liz: Yeah, because I just, I did a control-E and it’s not like called a Patronus at that point, either. 

Stephanie: It’s not called anything. 

Liz: Which, it’s just, it’s there, but we don’t really… 

Stephanie: So technically is that even a mention of the Patronus? Because… I mean, it’s a use. 

Liz: It’s a use. 

Stephanie: There’s definitely the use even though we don’t… 

Liz: We don’t know what it is yet. 

Stephanie: ..see it, hear about it, but from context clues. 

Lucy: Okay, so there was no description or anything of what he cast. It just said he cast something. 

Stephanie: He didn’t even say he cast something. 

Liz: But like assuming he did… 

Stephanie: Direct quotes. Assuming he did because the Dementor is…but the Dementor is gone when Harry wakes up. 

Liz: That’s true, but it’s not like Lupin could just be, “Boogly boo!” and scare off the Dementors, you know. He’s… 

Stephanie: But again, like I said, the book is from Harry’s point of view? So Harry’s passed out and Lupin is casting that Patronus. So Harry, Ron, and Hermione – not Harry – Ron, Hermione, Ginny, and Neville saw what was happening. But Harry doesn’t know how the Dementor on the train went away until… Later on when he becomes comfortable with Lupin and asks him.

Liz: Got it.

Lucy: Yeah, but I’m also quite surprised that Hermione didn’t badger Lupin right there and then, go, “What did you cast?”

Liz: Maybe she was scared. 

Stephanie: Hermione is… 

Lucy: Possibly. 

Stephanie: Watched this creepy thing walk in – or float, I guess they don’t have feet-

Liz: I think float, yeah.

Lucy: [Laughing] Can you imagine a Dementor walking? In stilettos or something? [Laughter]

Stephanie: …Float into the cabin-

Liz: No! No! That’s like a creepypasta!

Stephanie: Float into their train cabin, and then everything’s dark and all of a sudden Harry just passes out, and that’s where our focus turns because that’s her best friend. 

Liz: Yeah. That’s fair.

Lucy: Yeah, yeah. I guess that’s also a turning point to Hermione as well, going from book…always book-focused in one, and in two now, like, “Oh, I actually have friends and I actually do care about them.” 

Stephanie: Interesting. 

Lucy: So in the movies, that was just a movie-ism that they put it in there. 

Stephanie: Yeah, because the movies are more of an outside third-person, omniscient point of view? As movies tend to be. So they see everything going on. So they have to do something. 

Lucy: Yeah. Can I just tell you a pet peeve that I have in that scene in the movies? Why the [censored] does Ron put his hand on the window? It makes no sense! It looks awkward as [censored]. And he just puts it there. And he looks back, it’s like, what are you, in a drama movie and you’re the main female lead? Hello? So weird. [Laughter]

Liz: [Laughing] He was testing something. He was trying something out. He’s doing his best. 

Lucy: It’s such a weird direction! I can not watch that without going, “What the [censored]?” 

Liz: Let’s just call up Cuaron and be like, “Hello, what was the direction you gave Grint in this scene? Please, please advise.” [Laughter]

Lucy: Please explain. 

Stephanie: So… when Harry confronts Lupin about making the Dementor on the train go away, again, it doesn’t mention the Patronus charm, it just says, “There are certain defenses one can use.” And then that’s when they…

Lucy: What other defenses can you use? I need to know more. 

Liz: I don’t think we…

Lucy: I thought it was only the Patronus!

Stephanie: The way it’s actually phrased is like, “There are certain…defenses that one can use.” So it’s like he starts saying it in he changes what he was gonna…his train of thought changes as he goes and thinks of a different way to say it. 

Liz: Harry learning the Patronus!

Stephanie: The next time the Patronus comes up is when Harry’s actually learning how to cast it. And this is where Lupin first is working with him on learning the spell, pronouncing it correctly, and then the type of memories that are needed. This is when we actually first get our background into the Patronus charm, how to produce it, what it entails, and all that stuff. And then Lupin brings in a Boggart that he found, just…I think, roaming in the castle, if I remember correctly?

Lucy: Just casually vibing in the castle. 

Liz: Yeah. It’s just there. 

Stephanie: You love that word today, Lucy.

Lucy: It’s just there.

Stephanie: It’s just vibes. Everything’s vibes. [Laughter]

Lucy: I live with my 21-year-old sister, so…getting all the slang. 

Liz: Vibes! Litty! [Laughter]

Stephanie: Then currently, because of his fears, Harry’s Boggart takes the form of a Dementor, and then he practices repelling the Dementor with the Patronus charm that way, which is where he really starts to grasp hold of the concept of the spell and everything that it takes to cast it. 

Lucy: We learn in that scene is that… We learn that you need to have a specific powerful memory for it to work, which was his first memory of his first time flying the broom wasn’t powerful enough? It produced mist, but it didn’t produce the corporeal Patronus. Where, when he changed it to…was it the memory of his mother? [Unintelligible]? I don’t know. 

Stephanie: I think it’s either the feeling of remembering his parents or the feeling of being with Ron and Hermione. 

Lucy: Yeah, that’s when we get the corporal Patronus. 

Stephanie: Corporeal! 

Lucy: Corporeal. So something clicks when now he doesn’t have to think about and he just knows you need the feeling of happiness. 

Liz: Okay, so I’m continuing to look at that scene. As Harry’s continually trying to cast it, Lupin’s like, ‘Here, just have some chocolate, it’s cool, you know, take a break.’ And he’s like, ‘No, let me do it. I’m just not thinking of happy enough things. Let me try again.’ The next thing he thinks about is when he first found out he was a wizard and that he would be leaving the Dursleys. And that one gets him closer:

“A silver shadow came bursting out of the end of Harry’s wand to hover between him and the Dementor, and though Harry’s legs felt like water, he was still on his feet.” 

So that got him closer and Harry’s still like, ‘Let me do it again! Put me in, coach!’ and Lupin’s like, ‘No, you’re done, you need to have some chocolate, you need to chill now.’ 

Lucy: And then does he go again after that? After his little break? 

Liz: Not in that sequence, no. 

Lucy: So he doesn’t learn it again til another day, but he’s almost there? 

Liz: He’s almost there, yeah. because he’s like, ‘Can we have another go, just one more?’ 

Stephanie: If I remember correctly, he doesn’t actually produce a corporeal Patronus until he is defending himself and Sirius at the lake. And the reason why he knew he could do it is because he knew he’d already done it, because of the whole…wonky timeline thing? 

Liz: [Singsong] Wonky timeline!

Lucy: And he produces almost a corporeal one again at the Quidditch match when Draco and his cronies decide to dress up as Dementors. 

Liz: Yeah, it takes him a lot of effort, right? So I’m skipping through and it’s even after several sessions, he still could only produce “an indistinct silvery shadow,” and it was too feeble to drive the Dementor-slash-Boggart away. 

Lucy: This is actually very much better than how the movies depicted it, because it actually shows you how hard it actually is, where I feel like the movies… He did it like in three tries, like there was nothing else. But this one’s like, it’s taking days and days of just practicing, trying to find that click of, “Oh, now I understand what memory I need.”

Stephanie: And that days and days happened over several months. It’s not just like, a two-week time span. It’s several months due to them having to space it out because of other things going on, moon cycles, all of that jazz. 

Liz: Then we have during the Ravenclaw Quidditch match. I’m still looking at the fun things. When the three dementors appear: 

“He didn’t stop to think. Plunging a hand down the neck of his robes, he whipped out his wand and roared, ‘Expecto Patronum!’ Something silver-white, something enormous erupted from the end of his wand. He knew he had shot it directly at the Dementors, but didn’t pause to watch.” 

Because he’s still trying to grab the Snitch. When he gets closer, we don’t quite know what it is in that moment, and we don’t know what he thought of in that moment. But it worked. 

Lucy: Yeah. But that’s the first time that Dumbledore thought that it could be a stag. 

Liz: Oh yes, except they weren’t– I forgot, they weren’t actually Dementors. Bummy. But at least he had a really good cast so that, you know, hopefully gave him more confidence since he was feeling kind of crummy about his ability to cast it. 

Lucy: Yeah, so all you need to do is just distract him and then make him cast it. Bob’s your uncle. 

Liz: Yeah. So he doesn’t have time to overthink his happy memory. 

Stephanie: The last time – as we previously briefly mentioned – that it is used in The Prisoner of Azkaban is when the Dementor finds him and Sirius on the edge of the lake and is leaning in for the kiss that it’s supposed to provide to Sirius. And there’s one Harry reacting to the Dementor, trying to cast it, but he’s too weak at that point in time. And then timeline-jumping Harry from across the lake casts the Patronus, saving Sirius’s soul and Harry’s and himself as well. 

Liz: Love that for him. 

Lucy: Yeah, time travel madness. 

Stephanie: Then the next time we supposedly see a Patronus used is in Goblet of Fire. Dumbledore casts his Patronus and uses it to send a message after Krum is stunned in the Forest. But at this point, Harry doesn’t know what Dumbledore did other than conjuring a Patronus, because he is not aware that they can be used to send messages at that time. 

Lucy: Is that the first time we find out that Dumbledore’s Patronus is a phoenix? Or does it not mention what his Patronus is? 

Liz: Okay. Alright, I found it:

“‘No,’ said Dumbledore swiftly, ‘Stay here.’ He raised his wand into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid’s cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird.”

Stephanie: Interesting.

Lucy: Oh, so it’s not specifically a phoenix, but it could be. 

Liz: At least through Harry’s eyes, it isn’t. 

Stephanie: Well, we know how observant Harry can be. 

Liz: Yeah, yeah. So that’s what we get though, in terms of Patronus-y stuff in Goblet of Fire. 

Stephanie: Okay. Well, that’s… I wonder if Harry even can identify it specifically as a Patronus, or if he’s just like.. “Da heck?”. 

Liz: He just says, “Something silvery dart out of it and streak through the trees like a ghostly bird.” 

Stephanie: I’m gonna give Harry the benefit of the doubt here. 

Liz: I feel like there’s so much happening in that moment that even if he wanted to connect it as a Patronus, his mind is thinking about a million other things at that moment. He’s not… As we discussed, Harry is not the most observant. He’s not connecting, [baby voice] “Hmm. Maybe that was his Patronus!” Harry’s just not thinking about it! He’s thinking about Crouch, and where Crouch is, and what happened to Krum, and the bone, and… Right? Too many other things happening. 

Stephanie: Very true.

Lucy: So the next time that Harry casts a Patronus is at the start of The Order of the Phoenix, when he and Dudley are running away from a Dementor, basically, and his casting of his Patronus at that point earns him criminal charges for the use of underage magic, which is… [sarcastically] joy for him, because he doesn’t have enough going on in his life!

So when he gets to the Ministry of Magic and they’re all talking about the Patronuses, it sort of gets to the conclusion that the Ministry of Magic don’t believe that he can do that because as we know, it’s an extremely hard bit of magic, so how could a 14-year-old kid do that? But then we have Arabella Figg walk in. Good old lovely squib. And she explains that yes, he actually did that. 

And we learn that squibs can see Dementors, but muggles cannot. So Dudley during that whole fiasco was probably terrified, going, “What’s going on, I can’t see a thing!” That was a very interesting bit of information that I find for squibs, because they are basically cast out of the wizarding world, but they still have magic in them, that they can still see things and interact with things. So there’s still enough magic in their blood to be able to do that. Go Squibs!

Liz: That’s so fascinating though, that Dudley just… He has no clue what’s happening, just that Harry’s doing a thing and then Harry like gets a reprimand from the government. They’re like, “You gotta come to this hearing. Sorry.” 

Lucy: And don’t they take Dudley to the emergency room? 

Liz: I don’t know. 

Lucy: I’m curious to how that would have gone down. Was that just a movie–

Stephanie: It might be a movie-ism. 

Liz: I think that was just in the movie. I mean, I feel like- 

Lucy: Anyway! 

Liz: Yeah. Okay, next! When does it pop back up? 

Lucy: It pops back up a fair few times, but only mentioned. So after the hearing, you have Lucis Malfoy mentioning it, going, “Oh, this is Patronus Potter,” [laughter] while they’re at the Quidditch– no, I think it’s just in the Ministry of Magic. 

Liz: [Lucius Malfoy imitation] Patronus Potter. 

Lucy: He literally says, “Patronus Potter.” 

Liz: I’m sorry that’s hilarious. 

Lucy: And it’s Lucius Malfoy. So the whole scene is, “The second man turned a sound,” well, I feel like my digital book is just very weird. So Lucius Malfoy and someone else are talking, and he turns around and goes, “Well well, well, Patronus Potter.” That does not sound like something Lucius Malfoy would say, but sure. 

Stephanie: Oh, to me it completely does. He’s being condescending as heck. 

Liz: Yeah, that’s true. 

Stephanie: I think that is right up his alley. Because, A, I highly doubt he believes that Harry can cast that Patronus.

Lucy: Yeah, and you also have to remember that the last time that Harry saw Lucius was when he was in the graveyard and Lucius was in his Death Eater gear. 

Liz: Ooh, that’s true. It does feel like, of all the things he could call Harry, though…not his best. 

Lucy: No, it sounds like something Draco would say. 

Stephanie: Well, now we know where Draco gets it from. Apple, meet tree. When’s the next time we see a Patronus? 

Lucy: So the next time I believe we see one is during one of the DA meetings, where they are learning it because, despite Umbridge and all, it’s a pretty cool spell to learn. So the whole DA crew ends up learning it, and I’m pretty sure most of them are pretty successful, because that’s when we get Ginny, Luna, Ron and Hermione’s, I’m pretty sure the twins do theirs there? 

Stephanie: Movie. Movie. Movie.

Liz: Technically we can only get Ginny in the movie though, right? 

Stephanie: I was about to say in the book – because this is why I have book five with me today, because I was also doing research for a later episode that’s coming out. In the DA, in that scene, it is right before Umbridge is coming in to bust the DA, they are practicing it. And the only two that successfully complete it, especially with a corporeal Patronus, are Cho and Hermione. It’s mentioned that Lavender gets misty puffs and Seamus swears he saw something, but we have no record. 

Lucy: Seamus swears he sees everything. 

Liz: He’s like, “It was definitely hairy!” And I’m like, okay, that doesn’t help us! [Laughter]

Stephanie: Yeah, yeah. But those are the only ones that are actually able to cast it in that… 

Lucy: In that first session, but I do believe over time those other characters would have successfully done it.

Stephanie: Yeah, because obviously we see down the road where members of the DA are especially casting it, it’ll come up when we reach that point, but like… Battle of Hogwarts, stuff like that, but specifically in that book it’s only those. 

Liz: The line does say “the few Patronuses people had managed to conjure,” so maybe there was one or two others, but we just don’t know. 

Stephanie: Background characters that have no significance? 

Liz: Yeah. Or if Harry is considering, right, like the incorporeal- 

Stephanie: Probably a puff, let’s be honest. We never got enough credit for [censored]. 

Lucy: Yeah. Even before they learned how to produce the Patronus in the DA, a lot of them were questioning his ability when he brought up, “Do you guys want to be involved?” A lot of them were like, “Can you actually do that? Or is that just a rumor going around?” Until Susan, she’s like, no, my aunt says it’s actually true. So that also was the turning point for a lot of them supporting Harry and actually knowing that he’s powerful and can do these really advanced spells instead of just someone that’s just getting into trouble every year.

Liz: [Singing] Gettin’ into trouble!

Lucy: The next time we see Harry produce a Patronus is during his OWL exams. But give me a minute to find that part of the book, because I only just recently remembered it…

Liz: I have it up. I have it up.

Lucy: Okay, cool. 

Liz: It is: “‘Oh, Bravo,’ said Professor Tofte, who was examining Harry again, when Harry demonstrated a perfect Boggart banishing spell. ‘Very good indeed. Well, I think that’s all, Potter. Unless…’ He leans forward a little. ‘I heard from my dear friend, Tiberius Ogden, that you can produce a Patronus? For a bonus point?’ Harry raised his wand, looked directly at Umbridge, and imagined her being sacked. ‘Expecto Patronum.’ His silver stag erupted from the end of his wand and cantered the length of the hall.” 

[Holding back laughter] So he’s thinking about how happy he’d be if she wasn’t there! [Laughter]

Lucy: What a power move.

Liz: And it takes him no effort. 

Lucy: Yeah, so it makes you wonder if there’s something that does click in their minds where they don’t have to use… still very happy memories, but not the happiest to still be able to do it. 

Liz: All right, Half-Blood Prince. 

Lucy: Yes, the most vibiest book, because why not? No, the movie is just…

Liz: Yeah, the angst of the movie. 

Lucy: Teenage romcom. Anyway, in The Half-Blood Prince, Tonks uses a Patronus to send a message from the train to the school. I always forget that she’s on the train because they decided to change that to Luna in the movies. I was like, “Why?” But she sends it to the school to let the school know that she’s found Harry just lying in a pool of blood because why not? That’s just him.

Liz: He good, but he’s in a pool of blood. 

Stephanie: Because he got beat up. 

Lucy: What’s changed there? Nothing. But I think that’s the only time in The Half-Blood Prince that the Patronus charm is used or mentioned because it’s basically just a teenage romcom by that point at the school. 

Liz: Yeah. I think what’s interesting, because that sequence with Tonks, she’s like, ‘Oh,’ you know, ‘Put your cloak back on, we’ll walk up to school,’ she isn’t smiling. And it’s “As Harry swung the cloak back over himself, she waved her wand, and an immense silvery four-legged creature erupted from it.” He doesn’t say if she said the incantation or not. 

Lucy: But I reckon she’s advanced enough that she doesn’t need to. 

Liz: Oh yeah, for sure. It’s just so interesting to be like, wow, this is already a tough spell, but she could just do it non-verbally, you know, go. 

Lucy: And also, on top of that, doing Dumbledore’s version of the Patronus where you can send a message, which is just like, that’s probably even harder. She’s very accomplished. 

Liz: She is accomplished. 

I mean, there’s a lot of discussion then throughout that’s popping up, because Snape’s like, ‘oh I can’t wait to see what your new Patronus is,’ to Tonks. So there’s that discussion and Harry really latches onto that, he’s like, “Oh!” 

Lucy: Because that’s the first time we hear that your Patronus can change. 

Liz: Mm-hmm. You kind of got to wonder then if Harry was worried his might change. Because right, it was a big connection that he had to his father. I can understand being concerned that it would change and he would lose that. 

Stephanie: Yeah. No, that definitely makes sense, which is why, if he snapped to attention, he was actually paying super-close attention in that moment, that he’s panicking a little bit. 

Lucy: But I feel like his stag is so much part of his personality that it won’t change compared to some of the other Patronuses where it’s just like… Ron has a Jack Russell. Like, what’s that big connection to him? It’s not as big as a connection to Harry and the stag and his father and his mother who has the doe. It’s a lot more complicated. 

Stephanie: Alright. So if you want more information on that, stay tuned because we do have an episode coming up about family ties to Patronuses as well. 

Liz: On to Deathly Hallows. Because it pops up a lot. 

Stephanie: Dun dun dun. 

Liz: So it first pops up… During the wedding for Bill and Fleur, “A streak of light came flying across the yard and onto the table where it resolved itself into a bright silver weasel which stood on its hind legs and spoke with Mr. Weasley’s voice, ‘Minister of Magic coming with me.’” 

So that happened. And I think that’s when he’s coming to read the will. 

Stephanie: I forgot about that one. 

Liz: I did too. I forgot that he used a Patronus to do that and it wasn’t just like, a letter. I feel like they changed it to a letter in the movie, or am I remembering that wrong? 

Lucy: I thought he just rocked up. 

Liz: No, it talks about his Patronus flying in saying, ‘Hey guys, he’s coming.’ And you’re just like, ‘Oh, hello, hi.’ 

Lucy: So wait, then is Kingley’s Patronus warning the guests in Deathly Hallows, is that in the book? 

Liz: It is in the book. That’s the next one. 

“Harry did not know where to begin, but it did not matter. at that moment because something large and silver came falling through the canopy over the dance floor. Graceful and gleaming, the lynx landed lightly in the middle of the astonished dancers. Then the Patronus’ mouth opened wide and it spoke in the loud, deep, slow voice of Kingsley Shacklebolt. ‘The ministry has fallen. Scrimgeour–” I never know how to say his name. I’m really sorry. Is it…

Lucy: Skrim-jur? 

Liz: Yeah. “He’s dead. They are coming.” So we got two Patronus as messengers, kind of back to back there, and very significant because it’s the first time we’re hearing about more people’s Patronuses, which is cool. Also, that’s just like- 

Lucy: Yeah, especially the higher-up people, people who have graduated Hogwarts who are very accomplished in the magical arts, seeing them doing the Patronuses, not just kids. 

Liz: Yeah, it’s true. It’s true. 

Liz: Okay, let me see. What’s our next one? Oh, yes, the Forest of Dean. Let me skip there. Oh, yes, and then Hermione attempting to do it because Ron’s like, ‘Can you do the thing?’ And Hermione’s like, ‘I’ve been practicing, maybe.’ 

Lucy: ‘I don’t know!’

Liz: “Then Hermione shrieked, Harry drew his wand again and spun around to see a silver Patronus soar through the drawing room and land on the floor in front of them, where it solidified into the weasel that spoke–” you know, with Arthur’s voice– “family safe, do not reply, we’re being watched.” 

So there’s a lot of Patronus messenger-ing in Deathly Hallows, stuff that I really forgot about, because that’s a throwaway line. 

Stephanie: Which, if you think about it, completely makes sense at this time of panic and chaos, and you know every channel of communication is being watched. So this is the only safe way people can communicate – or people of the Order, at least, that are remaining can communicate. 

Lucy: Yeah, because I don’t think you can track a Patronus. 

Liz: I don’t think so. 

Lucy: Because they’ll just be too fast. 

Liz: No, because the owls can be intercepted and the floo network and stuff, right, because you have to be… Your fireplace has to be on the list. And it sounds like… 

Lucy: Yeah, we know that the flu network can be intercepted because Umbridge did that during their fifth year. So yeah. 

Stephanie: It’s the only safe way. 

Liz: Okay. And then next up, we have when we meet Umbridge’s, where it’s a Patronus cat patrolling the room as Mrs. Cattermole is crying and Harry is watching on, as Umbridge and Yaxley are trying to decide who’s actually a wizard and who is a muggle who stole magic. And Harry was pretty sure it was Umbridge’s, because it was a cat. 

Stephanie: Makes sense. It does make me sad, though that she didn’t die. Umbridge does. 

Liz: Let’s see. And then as part of that sequence, they’re trying to run, Hermione casts her Patronus, right? They’re trying to get Mrs. Cattermole out… It’s a whole thing. She still thinks Ron is her husband because of the Polyjuice. 

Stephanie: The Polyjuice potion? [Laughter]

Lucy: Now I’ve got the meme in my head that I feel like just sums up every trio plan: “We make the plan, we execute the plan. Do you expect the plan to go off the rails? We throw away the plan.”

Liz: Yeah. Harry’s manages to stay for a pretty long while during this, but Harry just has a lot more experience casting it than Hermione, so that’s to me not that weird. But also, why is he casting a Patronus when people know what his Patronus is, right? He literally had a whole hearing where people talked about his Patronus. Like… [Laughter]

Lucy: You’re not a smart cookie sometimes, Harry. 

Stephanie: Harry’s desire to protect outweighs what little rationale or reason he has in that head of his. 

Liz: Oh, yes. And then we have the doe Patronus appearing with, you know, during the sword stuff. And Harry was like, ‘It was you?’ Ron’s like, ‘Well, yeah, Harry, you cast the doe?’ ‘What? No, I thought that was you.’ And Harry’s just like, ‘My Patronus is a stag, dude.’ He’s like, ‘Oh, yeah. I thought it looked different, there were no antlers.’ Ron, thanks. [Laughter] But we later learn that was Snape!

Stephanie: Not only the emotional range of a teaspoon, but the common sense of a teaspoon as well. 

Lucy: I wouldn’t like either of them to be left alone for any period of time. I don’t… They would not survive. 

Liz: I love how they’re then debating whose Patronus it was, because they’re like, ‘Well, was it Kingsley?’ No, we saw his, it was a Lynx! And he’s like, ‘Dumbledore is dead, so it’s obviously not his Phoenix.’ And Ron’s like, ‘Yeah, but they can change, right?’ It’s like, yeah, then who’s changed, Ron? Have you? [Laughter] Ron was giving a lot of questions and not a lot of answers during that discussion. 

Stephanie: Which I feel is very Ron. 

Liz: Yeah. Okay. Let’s see. Ministry courtroom. McGonagall sending the message. Where’s that one? I don’t remember that one. 

Stephanie: Are there any more references to it before the Battle of Hogwarts? 

Liz: Oh, right. 

Lucy: That’s at this point when Snape jumps out the window. They’re in the corridor, not in the Great Hall. 

Liz: Right. Okay, okay. I forget about that. 

Lucy: Wait. Is that in the books that Snape turns into a bat? Or is that a movie thing? 

Liz: I don’t remember that in the book. I don’t remember that anywhere, Lucy. 

Lucy: Okay, that’s a fan fiction then. 

Liz: Oh! We can’t forget when Harry and them first apparate into Hogsmeade and they break the curfew and the charm goes off. They think there’s the stag, but it’s a goat. It’s Aberforth’s goat being cast. We can’t forget that. 

[Transcriber’s note: I’m pretty sure none of them remember what actually happens in this scene. Harry casts a Patronus and Aberforth convinces the investigators that it was his goat in order to hide Harry’s presence in Hogsmeade.]

Lucy: I’m saying, best Patronus ever. 

Liz: Just Aberforth’s response: “Stag? It’s a goat, idiot!” Like, oh, okay. [Laughter]

Lucy: Shade. 

Stephanie: Very proud of his goat. 

Liz: And then they’re like, were you the doe Patronus? And he’s like, ‘I literally just showed you my Patronus is a goat.’ Like, try again. 

Liz: Oh yes, now I’m to the place where McGonagall… “From the tip burst three silver cats with spectacle markings.” Okay, so that confirms her Patronus also has the spectacle markings that her Animagus does, which is wild. Wild. 

Stephanie: Which is also referenced in a future episode. So pause on that train of thought and come back later for that one. 

Liz: Okay, but that also just opens up a whole ‘nother can of worms. If you can tell markings on the Patronus, can we tell colors? 

Lucy: That’s a different episode for a different day, because I have a lot of theories on that and I’m guessing you guys don’t want me to go into it. 

Liz: That’s our conspiracy theory one. So McGonagall uses her cat Patronuses to go out and about. 

And then everyone casting their Patronuses, Luna and Ernie and Seamus, which is really fun. That’s when we- oh yeah, that’s when we find out Ernie has a boar and that Seamus has a fox, so he wasn’t wrong originally that when he was like, I swear it was their Harry and it was something hairy, so he wasn’t wrong. That’s kind of like a fun majestic end to our last Patronus use in the series, right? All of them coming together and- all of their Patronuses is kind of acting as this big unit. That’s pretty beautiful. 

Lucy: Yeah. I wish we got to see that in the films, because we only got Luna and Aberforth, I think, with the trio. 

Liz: Yeah, I don’t think–

Lucy: Or no, did we get everybody? 

Liz: Did we? I don’t remember. 

Lucy: I don’t think everybody was there. Hmm.

Liz: I can’t remember what ended up in the movie because I feel like I’ve seen a million of the different extended cuts and the ones where people have added in the deleted scenes. So then I get confused. I’m like, “Wait, which things actually ended up in the theatrical cut?” 

Stephanie: Maybe we’ll need to do an analysis in the future of uses in the movies as well. And then kind of compare and contrast. 

Liz: That would be good. It’s a good reason to re-watch the movies. 

Lucy: I’m always down to re-watch them. 

Liz: Well, I think that brings us to an end. 

Stephanie: Alright, is that everything? 

Liz: I think so. I think that’s all the uses. 

Stephanie: Awesome! 

Lucy: If we’ve missed something, our audience will let us know. 

Liz: Please. Yes, please let us know. because this was a journey. 

Stephanie: But you can find us on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook at ExpectoPodtronum. We are also on Twitter or X, whichever you prefer to call it, at ExpectoPod. We do also have a Patreon where we do a whole lot of fun bonus stuff. And you can find that at patreon.com/ExpectoPodtronum. Please leave us a review wherever you are listening. It helps so much. And if you have any questions, comments, concerns, things you wanna add in, things you wanna see us talk about – or I guess, hear us talk about – feel free to send us some Patronus post to our email at expectopatronum@gmail.com. 

Lucy: And that’s goodbye from me. 

Liz: Bye from me. Stephanie: And remember, a piece of chocolate a day will keep the Dementors away.

“Food Show” by Music_For_Videos, Anastasia Kir — “Movie Score A” by DHy-Nez, Denita Smith — “Excuse me Cat” by geoffharvey, Geoff Harvey — “The Classical” by Music_For_Videos, Anastasia Kir — “Uplifting Celebration” by makesoundmusic, Mike Kripak — “Mysterious Music: Light Mystical Background Music for Short Video/Vlog” by White Records, Maksym Dudchyk — “Telling the Story” by goeffharvey, Geoff Harvey